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 Post subject: Re: help with top note whistle
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2013, 17:11 

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Hey spirit.

I guess I'm accustomed to make these views as the European guilds and most recorder diagrams.
re the diagram: take your ocarina put the window under a strong light and look down the wind channel. there is a slight sliver of light which is under the lip, then the blunt lip, then the ramp.

I have just tried to scan a picture from the British Bamboo Pipe Guild's manual --the picture is clear, but I am afraid that I do not have permission to copy this photo and the fipple may prove more confusing than beneficial......the Italian guild is another good source for photos.


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 Post subject: Re: help with top note whistle
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2013, 18:07 

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Ok so I did read it correctly then.

So what I am seeing is the silver on top which is the light above the labium edge, then the darker portion which is the labium edge, then the section beneath the labium edge which is the inside of the the ocarinas chamber. Correct? If this is the case, then what I was saying you may want to try is thickening the labium edge so that none of the bottom portion of your diagram is visible. So instead of top to bottom being, external light on ramp, labium edge, internal chamber, it would just be external light on ramp, and labium edge.


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 Post subject: Re: help with top note whistle
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2013, 18:31 

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hummmmmm, I thought I sent a note explaining this and speaking in terms of a picture that I decided not to send--do not have permission from the British Build
Spirit, maybe the letter was placed somewhere else, but here goes again---the window is pointed UP toward a light.

How is your morning in NC?


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 Post subject: Re: help with top note whistle
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2013, 19:35 

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It's fine here in NC humid as always :D I'm sure its similar in South Carolina.


Please visit by Facebook page so that you can stay updated on my progress.
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My website http://spiritwindocarina.com/


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 Post subject: Re: help with top note whistle
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2013, 23:02 

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Hi Andy

Having been doing this for three years or so now, i know very well the frustration of an issue suddenly occurring with seemingly little explanation as to why it exists. And i also know the terrible ordeal of frantically trying to solve these kind of problems, losing many many ocarinas in the process. I'm going to list some things here for you to try, they will be by no means the absolute answer to your problem, because as Ross pointed out in another post, what works for some makers might not work for others. But they are worth some consideration, even if they are obvious (sometimes it is the glaringly obvious that is the culprit).

1. Okay so first off, the voicing size and length. Now i gather from another topic and reading the posts in this one, that you have already tried this but to no avail. The advice you were given is valid, but then there are examples of circular (i.e. - short) voicings for example that do not squeak when pushed, so depending on the ocarina, length isn't always the case. I have an old ocarina i made ages ago with a small circular voicing that, no matter how much i abuse it, all the notes play clearly and never squeaks. I don't know how i managed that, i'd like to say skill, but it was a very early ocarina in my development so i'd more likely call it fluke. Anyway, i digress. In most cases, voicing size and length will play a part in this, but if you've adequately altered this and you're still having trouble, then it must be something else that is wrong.

2. The labium lip. As has been mentioned, too sharp a labium lip can cause squeaks when pushed, whilst a more blunt labium may not. However again, the ocarina i mentioned above, it had a sharp lip also, and no squeaks...so again, if the high notes are squeaking regardless of how sharp or blunt the labium is, it is something else. But before dismissing this, it would be a good idea to test sharp and blunt labiums thoroughly before moving on to the next point.

3. Ramp angle. It would be a good idea to test shallow ramps against steep ramps. Shine a torch through the windway and look at how the light hits the labium and the ramp - you want a more concentrated area of light around the labium ideally, with little excess light falling elsewhere. I personally prefer a steep ramp to a shallow one, but then that all depends on the maker and their particular ocarina design/shape.

4. Windway exit height. Often if the exit is too narrow you can get squeaks if you really push the notes. If you suspect your exit is too narrow on an ocarina you have just made, you can very carefully open it up a little with a spare flat stick. Don't go too mad though, a wider exit can alter pitch and make notes airy - you want it just right!

5. Windway alignment. This may seem like an obvious one, or it might apply more to ocarinas with an angled mouthpiece (i don't know if yours are angled or not). Naturally, the mouthpiece will dictate the angle at which the player blows into the wind way. You must make sure your windway is correctly aligned with the angle of the mouthpiece, otherwise it is possible the air stream will get disrupted before even hitting the labium (or even end up hitting the labium in a bizarre way). I've drawn a diagram to illustrate:

Windway Alignment
Image


6. Voicing Alignment. And following the same token of the previous point, make sure your voicing is correctly aligned to the angle of the wind way. This may apply more to those who use elongated or tear-drop shaped voicings (i.e. - the longer shapes) - i find it helps to shape the end of the slotstick to your desired voicing shape, and also to draw a line in pen down the centre of the stick. Here is a diagram to illustrate:

Voicing Alignment
Image


And that is about all i can think of, i hope one of these solves your problem. It may not be a straight-forward fix, and in my opinion, the best way to go about this is to systematically try and eliminate each point so you can narrow it down. If your previous ocarinas didn't squeak, it is a very good idea to take time to sit down and properly study every single detail you can to try to pin-point what is different about them to your newer ones. Good luck :)


My ocarinas are for sale on eBay

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 Post subject: Re: help with top note whistle
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2013, 23:41 

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Gosh Jade, It's late over there and I do appreciate the time you took to outline your working ideas.

Yes, I am aware of your below points, but I'm just not getting all the variables correct. Right now I'm playing with the walls and roof of the window---really interesting results!

1. the walls of the wind channel should be really squared, and as you mention and aligned.

2. Lip edge. My experience is that blunt lips help to make the lower notes strong and a sharper lip helps the attack on higher notes (also increases overtones in none vessel flutes). Spirit suggested that the lips bottom edge is aligned to the bottom of the wind channel. I feel some distance up from that lower alignment is needed, but that can be the maker's choice. Native American flutes do align the bottom of the channel to the bottom of the top.

3. The size of the window could be calculated, well I couldn't anymore but Kleminir could. I'm sure someone has determined an optimum percentage. So on this point, I just start small and enlarge to bring the pitch up, or to make the timbre satisfying, or clarify the pitch.

4. the lip angle: So far I've tried both one slope and then two slope. Most fipple pipes’ slopes having high walls seem to need a second slope ( British manuals on fipples); ie, to rid the sound of a choked character. I, accustomed to that "upbringing" start the first slope at 45 degrees and then the second much more angled depending on the sound.

Quote:
Windway alignment. This may seem like an obvious one, or it might apply more to ocarinas with an angled mouthpiece (i don't know if yours are angled or not).
I'm certain I have need for more practice with this and much more knowledge on the outcome

5. how did you attach your drawings? How did you save the drawings, then attach them?

Jade, your work is beautiful, mine is nothing but using local clays and making what I can with this short natural clay body. BUT even if I were in your studio, I could never match what you do......simply stunning stuff.

Thanks for taking the time

Andy


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 Post subject: Re: help with top note whistle
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2013, 00:02 

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Very nice post Jade :D Acox, you may want to take the time to watch this video by Chris. He goes over some common issues that ocarina makers face. I found it quite informative. He has a series of videos on youtube of how he makes his ocarinas. You may be able to pick up a few tips. Also, when you think you have found an ideal window size and shape for your ocarinas, you may want to consider making a tool to help reproduce the result. I have a wooden dowel tool that I sanded to the shape of a tear drop in the size that I want it. It helps tremendously in shaping the window. In Jade's tutorial, she uses a small drill bit to reproduce her window shape and size another effective method.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj-fQ4uXy04


Please visit by Facebook page so that you can stay updated on my progress.
http://www.facebook.com/spiritwind.ocarinas

My website http://spiritwindocarina.com/


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 Post subject: Re: help with top note whistle
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2013, 01:11 

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Chris' videos are terrific...


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 Post subject: Re: help with top note whistle
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2013, 01:19 

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So you have seen his videos then? I would definitely say to study videos from as many makers as you can and as many pictures as you can from different makers. Although I'm sure your already doing that :D

Anyways it is probably best to follow Jade's advice and go over each point and see what happens with your ocarinas. It can take years of experimenting before makers can say they have a system down that reproduces their desired results. I know I'm still learning.

Also sometimes a single ocarina can have an issue and you just can't figure out why. This just happens on occasions and you just have to squish it down and name it a dud. When you have repeated undesirable results is when you have an issue


Please visit by Facebook page so that you can stay updated on my progress.
http://www.facebook.com/spiritwind.ocarinas

My website http://spiritwindocarina.com/


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 Post subject: Re: help with top note whistle
PostPosted: 24 Dec 2015, 09:57 

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Tytoalba wrote:
Spoiler
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Thank you, Tytoalba, for the beautiful diagram.


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